Episode 379: How to Create a Sense of Belonging With Jackye Clayton From Textio

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Episode 379: How to Create a Sense of Belonging With Jackye Clayton From Textio

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Table of Contents

One of the reasons why hiring people from underrepresented groups as the first stage is wrong is because you have people from underrepresented groups that are there. Ask them about their experiences. What do they would they like to see? What do they think are missing? Because they’re having the conversations whether you know it or not. Maybe they haven’t felt open to share that information with you. But that also is important to take account internally of where do we need to start? So you can have build programs to make sure that people are feeling welcome and seeing if there is any gaps.

Episode 379: How to Create a Sense of Belonging With Jackye Clayton (@JackyeClayton) From Textio


Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive workplace leader. Join host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com, as she sits down and gets to the bottom of trends, tools, and case studies for the business leader, HR, and recruiting professional who is tired of the status quo. Now here’s Jessica with this episode of Workology.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:01:01.59] This podcast is part of the Workology Podcast that is focused on DEI and HR. Diversity, equity, inclusion are not new ideas in HR or corporate arenas, but in recent months, the importance and significance of DEI in the workplace has gotten leaders throughout corporate to start thinking about what doing the right thing in our community looks like. For many of us in HR, this means we’re not taking DEI initiatives to stakeholders. Those stakeholders are coming to us looking for answers, and we must be ready to respond. This podcast is powered by Ace the HR Exam  and Upskill HR. These are two courses that I offer for HR certification prep and recertification for HR leaders. Go to Learn.Workology.com. Before I introduce our podcast guest for today, I do want to hear from you. Text the word “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005, ask questions, leave comments, and make suggestions for future guests. This is my community text number and I want your feedback. Today I’m joined by Jackye Clayton. She’s the Vice President of Talent Acquisition and  DEIB at Textio. Jackie is an acclaimed thought leader and inspirational speaker on recruiting and DEI topics. In her role as the VP of Talent Acquisition and DEI, she leads all related work at Textio, provides critical expertise to customers and serves as a leading voice in the products Textio creates for the broader ecosystem. Jackye has been named one of the 9 Most Powerful Women in Business You Should Know by SDHR Consulting. She’s one of 15 Women in HR Tech to Follow by VidCruiter, and one of the Top Recruitment Thought Leaders that you must follow by interviewMocha Magazine. She’s also among the Top 100 list of Human Resources Influencers by Human Resource Executive Magazine. Jackye was previously an editor for RecruitingDaily, and currently co-hosts a popular DEI podcast, Inclusive AF. Jackye, welcome to the Workolgy Podcast.

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:08.22] Hi, I’m happy to be here.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:03:10.59] I am so proud of you. You know, we’ve known each other for a long time. Yes, but then I read your, your, your intro and I’m like, hey!

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:20.52] Right? On the moon!

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:03:22.26] On the moon! Well, I have talked to a lot of D&I leaders, DEI leaders, DEIA leaders. And I love that you’re using DEIB. For those that don’t know what the B stands for, can you talk about that and why it’s so important?

Jackye Clayton: [00:03:39.93] Yes, the B stands for belonging. And, you know, as we go through this journey, one of the challenges and part of the reason why there’s been such an emphasis on DEIB is inviting people who may be, historically have been left out. And so there’s potential there for that person to become othered and then not feel comfortable. Maybe they don’t have a culture of inclusion. And so it’s like, okay, I’ve been included, but do I feel like I belong? So the example that you hear a lot, there’s a quote that comes out from the woman running diversity at Netflix. I can’t remember her name right now, but the quote basically says, “Diversity is being asked to the dance and inclusion is being asked to dance.” And belonging means there’s a pool table in the corner just in case dancing isn’t even a thing, like, you want to do. Making sure that they ask you what kind of songs you’d like on the playlist and making sure they have gluten-free waffles, you know, so I feel like I actually belong here. And so with that, we really kind of focus on making sure that we have a psychologically safe environment and help our managers keep that in mind as they’re developing programs.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:04:54.46] I love that. And I think it’s important to mention that you might feel safe at work. And I mean, like me and then you’re listening, but your employees, certain individuals, managers, employees, they might not. So just because you feel alright about it doesn’t mean that somebody else feels okay and included, like, they belong.

Jackye Clayton: [00:05:14.59] That’s right. And in addition to that, there’s workplace trauma that happens that you may have not ignored or you go along the way. And there’s things that have happened in your life at work that for whatever reason, maybe there wasn’t an even distribution of power, or maybe at the beginning of your career where you’re not really sure what to do because our lives are tied to work, right? It’s how we make money. It determines on, on our families, where we live, where our children go to school, you know, all of these types of things. And so what happens, even when you have a, an organization that focuses on DEIB, you can still bring some of that trauma with you that you remember from times past. And so it’s important to recognize you could be doing all of the steps correctly. You’re treating people the same way you would treat everyone else. But to me, on the receiving end, it feels very different to me because of my experiences. We’re all a product of our various experiences, and so sometimes with that we have to give a friendly reminder that we’re not all the same. We want to keep those things into consideration so that we can get to the business of doing our jobs without unnecessary distractions, if that makes sense.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:06:34.69] It does. So let’s talk about maybe some examples of what belonging looks like in practice at work.

Jackye Clayton: [00:06:42.19] Sure. So one of the things that we do is we have healing circles. And healing circles, it allows people to share thoughts that are on their mind without debate. It’s not up for discussion, it’s not part of policy. But giving people a chance to share their, their thoughts is helpful so that they know that they have a voice and that they’re being heard. The other part is we have like at Textio, we have an inclusion council so that we can make sure that the policies and programs that are in place, people are engaging there, that people are participating and seeing. And we have someone from every department as a part of this inclusion council to say what has been the impact. So that we noticed, are people participating more? Do that people feel like they belong? And what suggestions do we have? It’s also making sure that you’re doing inventory of the people that are on your team. Is it a place where someone who’s different can feel like they, they belong and holding people accountable for those efforts? And, you know, it’s challenging because really we’re seeing the shift where HR is also responsible for company culture. A lot of times along with the person who’s responsible for DEI, and we know that culture can shift with every hire. And so you really have to stay on top of it and make sure that you’re paying attention before, we want to do it proactively, so before something happens that we have to react to, we want to look at it from a proactive standpoint.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:08:22.71] For context, how big is Textio’s? What’s the employee size?

Jackye Clayton: [00:08:27.54] Textio, I think we’re at 127 right now. So we are small and that’s important to notice. But what’s also great for people to understand is that this is a directive that came from the top of the organization and why I’m there, not something that happened in the middle of it. It’s, it’s something that is been, and it’s scary, right? It’s a scary job. I didn’t realize it was scary until I started talking out in the field. And people are like, oh, so you’re responsible for inclusion in a company that helps other organizations find inclusion? And I’m like, Oh, I got a cramp. I’m like, I didn’t even think about that before I came over because it’s been a part of my world for such a long time. But yeah, so it gives me a certain amount of autonomy to be able to put in particular programs for sure.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:09:19.49] Well, I think it’s important to talk about how large the company is, because sometimes I think people think, oh, we’re a small company, we only have 50 employees. Like we don’t have the people power or a need to, to have these things like an inclusion council in place. But it’s never too early to start building in inclusion and helping people feel like they belong.

Jackye Clayton: [00:09:43.40] Yes. And it’s very helpful when you are a smaller company before going to an ERG or a different organization, which is a whole another podcast all to itself. But you still want to make sure that people belong and you want to make sure that you’re fostering that growth. It’s a necessary business skill now, and people are looking to those programs of seeing what you’re doing of longevity. And it’s a retention issue at this point. And it’s for everyone, for everyone of every background, looking to see how people are being treated and is it an equitable space, even if they’re a member of a majority group, still want to make sure that they’re working for a company that embraces diversity and is treating people in an equitable way.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:33.26] So you’ve been in the recruiting space for, for 20+ years?

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:38.24] Yes.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:39.80] A long-ass time.

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:40.82] Look at the gray, dude. I did not start that way.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:45.05] Can you talk about how you got started and then why you were drawn into DEI as a leader?

Jackye Clayton: [00:10:51.71] Yes. So I really went in during recruiting. I started agency recruiting. At the time, I had spent four years not working, taking care of my children and raising my children. And during that time, no lie. I know this is going to sound odd, but during that time I became a Tupperware lady, right? I had to go back to work and I was like, I was a business analyst, a technical business analyst before. And I was like, I don’t know anything that’s happened on with technology. I’ve just been changing diapers and chasing children. And I started selling Tupperware and I was like, I’m going to put Tupperware on my resume. And they literally brought me in because my resume, of course, this is pre-ATS and pre-LinkedIn and pre-online, but I had sales and I had technology and so that’s what they were looking for to find recruiters, technology recruiters. But during that time and starting to participate in organizations for talent acquisition and, in HR, there was a need to find candidates from underrepresented groups and the methodologies that people were using meant that I wasn’t going to be found. And I thought I was pretty great, right? So I was like, wait, I want to be able to be found. I want to try to make suggestions and research.

Jackye Clayton: [00:12:15.17] And I started writing for SourceCon. And what was interesting is that I was asked to write about diversity, but not write about women or people of color, which I was like, Oh, okay, I’ll get right back. I had to go do research because I was like, that’s all I know about. And it really brought in my horizons and I realized how much I didn’t know. And I, at the time, when we were starting to get to doing online recruiting or online policies, there was a huge push of sharing that information. And so I just wanted to share that information and started realizing some of the struggles and with that, started working in that way with a lot of startups writing about HR technology and seeing the gaps of how this was not made to find everyone and just became passionate about finding ways to make that more equitable. And so it kind of came over. So it’s always been dotted line to HR. Always had that relationship. I’ve worked in recruitment under corporate and where it was a part of HR and now where we report directly to the CEO, I report to the CEO and they report to me as a dotted line partnership with human resources.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:13:33.82] That was going to be my next question, because I think that a lot of times people just put HR, like diversity under HR and there’s nothing wrong with it. But if, I feel like if you’re going to be serious about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, you should report directly to the CEO and be a member of the executive leadership team.

Jackye Clayton: [00:13:56.44] Thank you for saying that. I mean, it’s a business initiative and people have to understand there is a difference when you’re looking at a passion, like a personal passion outside of work versus the business, to making sure that we’re, we’re able to continue to conduct the business, which means we have to align these DEIB goals with the business goals. And we need to look at it realistically, like what technology is going to help us to have the greatest opportunities to have people from underrepresented groups. What states should we recruit in and what are, and then we have to partner with HR because what are the rules within the various states in which we hire? There’s various things [00:14:39.82] with. [00:14:40.00] There’s all sorts of nuances. And we partner, especially with our HR business partner with the leadership team, where we fulfill a certain gap of coaching and training with our leaders but focus on that aspect and they can focus on some of the other aspects of career mapping and all of those pieces. So we really work hand in hand together on a lot of those aspects, but I think some people just default, you work with humans, so diversity must fall under HR. And there is a certain opportunity. You know, there’s things that we learn as we’ve gone through the way and of course, we’ve all heard of cases and different things that have gone on in that space. But as we’ve become more aware and it is tied to those business needs, it needs to be tied to a leader that can enforce and make those changes and be aware of the importance. And so that’s why you need that direct line of communication.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:15:38.62] I think that’s the biggest challenge. We’ve hired all these DEI individuals to lead the diversity efforts for our organizations, but because they don’t have a direct line to the executive team, they aren’t able to talk about the business impact or the budget that they need or the people to be able to do that. And so I see a lot of really great people that during 2020, 2021 moved into DEI roles and then have left and moved somewhere else because it was a solution because of, it was a reaction to something that was in the news. Black Lives Matter and George Floyd, which I absolutely, we needed to have, we need to have these people in the organizations. But if they don’t report to the person with the budget, the purse strings, and tie it to a business outcome, it’s not going to really be utilized.

Jackye Clayton: [00:16:33.70] That’s right. And I think the frustration is because a lot of organizations gave that role to the person who seemed to be most passionate into the organization. And just because you are a member of an underrepresented group does not make you an expert about having to deal with the DEIB within an organization. Like you don’t see a lot of people that are chefs that are also diet specialists, right? Like, yeah, I’m passionate about food. I want people to be happy. That doesn’t mean I, my meals are going to help people lose weight per se just because I’m in that role. And so what happens is you get excited and if you haven’t done it from that business side, you get excited, but then you get disappointed and you haven’t done this work and understood why is this an issue in the first place? And it’s so important to be able to, like you’re saying, is have that direct line and see what the overall impact is going to be. And for example. We’re looking, we were looking for an HRIS earlier this year and the members of our team were part of that process and looking and they, you would be shocked on how many or maybe not, maybe not you, but somebody listening is going to be shocked to know that there are HRIS systems and it said woman, man or x where the choices, and we were like, oh, we cannot use this. We can’t use that. It is not inclusive. There’s no reporting. We can’t look at the intersectionality, you know, like our democrat, like, we can’t use that. And that came purely from a partnership along and the understanding before making some of those choices. But you’re right, it does take budget, it does take support. And it is a lot of work. And it’s unfortunate that people can’t, the same people that ask for these programs to be in place are the same people that get in the way of being able to move forward.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:18:29.90] HRIS systems that do not have these options, take note because you’re not going to get business if you aren’t thinking from an inclusive point of view. And that reporting is so important.

Jackye Clayton: [00:18:43.07] It is absolutely key. I mean, we interviewed someone last week who, we have a place for you to enter your pronouns, and they were like, It’s the first time anyone has asked me my pronouns before I went to the interview process. And everyone, no one has misgendered me through this whole process and they wanted to work with us for that reason alone. I mean, they went through everything else. But there’s, and it doesn’t take a lot. It doesn’t take a lot.

Break: [00:19:12.83] Let’s take a reset. This is Jessica Miller-Merrell, and you are listening to the Workology Podcast powered by Ace the HR Exam and Upskill HR. Go to Learn.Workology.com to learn more about our courses for professional development and HR certification. Today we’re talking with Jackye Clayton, Vice President of Talent Acquisition and DEIB at Textio. Before we get back, I want to hear from you. Shoot me a text. Text “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005. Ask me questions, leave comments, and make suggestions for future guests. This is my community text number and I want to hear from you.

Break: [00:19:51.71] Personal and professional development is essential for successful HR leaders. Join Upskill HR to access life training, community, and over 100 on-demand courses for the dynamic leader. HR recert credits available. Visit UpskillHR.com for more.

Pronouns and Inclusivity


Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:20:08.07] So you’ve mentioned one thing which is asking pronouns during the hiring process to be more inclusive. What are some steps or other ways that you as a TA or an HR leader, can take to ensure that candidates feel comfortable and more included in the hiring process?

Jackye Clayton: [00:20:28.44] Yes. So one of those things is we give our candidates the questions that we’re going to ask, the things that they should be able to prepare for because we want candidates to come and show their best selves. We don’t want to quiz them on their ability to handle stress and anxiety during the interview process. We have started asking in advance, do they need close captions on during the interview process? Do, you know, what type of software do they have so that we can make sure that we are being equitable, letting them know about how to turn on accessibility in Zoom? Because for some people it might be their first experience. Maybe they’ve only used Teams or some other type of product so that it can be accessible. And we also introduce ourselves with our, our pronouns and we do a round robin and it has become part of our culture. And we also ask candidates if they’d like to practice interviewing before they go on to the interview process to make sure that especially people that are neurodiverse or maybe they want to test out the software that we give those options as well before. And it’s funny because God bless Glassdoor, it’s funny to see the change where people are like, I didn’t get the job, but it was a positive interview experience. And I’m like, Oh, thank goodness. We’ve been working really, really hard on that to make sure that people feel like they belong and take the burden off of the candidate and put the onus on ourselves.

Jackye Clayton: [00:22:02.52] Several people have an accommodation statement on their job posts or on their career pages that says, if you have a problem, let us know. Or they might say, We encourage people from underrepresented communities to apply, but they don’t say from various communities, whether it be, you know, if, if they’re, with a disability, we look at all abilities we want to hire from all abilities, all communities, just things like that, and help people know that we’ve paid attention to those things so that people don’t have to feel like they have to out themselves during the interview process. I love looking at closed captions. It just is like I do all the time. But I don’t know, I guess it’s because of, when I started looking at videos at work, I’m just used to having closed captions in the background. And so people prefer that than having to say, you know, I’m a little bit hearing impaired or I use an ocular some type of thing to help me with hearing, feel uncomfortable sharing because historically a lot of people were discriminated because of those things. So we just offer it to everyone. And so it really has helped in that process, making sure that people feel like they can belong.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:20.49] I have used the Zoom closed captioning feature we interviewed on the podcast, Meryl Evans who is deaf and it was a great experience. I was a little nervous. We tested it out beforehand, but it was really easy to use. And she also reads lips, but you can’t count that everyone is going to be lip reader.

Jackye Clayton: [00:23:42.60] Right.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:43.11] And it was, it was fantastic. We had a great conversation. It wasn’t awkward or weird at all. It was a great, it was great. I loved it.

Jackye Clayton: [00:23:52.86] Yes. Yeah. I mean, and like you said, you could just turn it on. And it’s very important for, we’re starting to look at some other things for people that are visually impaired so that we can have it in place so that when people have accommodations, we already have a list of the accommodations we have in house, if it’s anything outside of that. But then we also practice so that, because this is where bias slips in, right? I will never forget a, I had an interview with a candidate that was hearing impaired and they didn’t tell the hiring manager that they had a person who was a translator. They had someone who did sign language. They didn’t read lips, and so they talked for that person. But the person who was deaf also had noise, made noises, and the hiring manager was like, I can’t do this. PS: Yes, you can. And number two, it’s the law. Like, baffled. But that’s what their bias came in. And it was unconscious because they hadn’t studied it, didn’t understand this was their first experience. And so we want to make sure that all of this is so that we can just do our jobs, like I said, without distraction. And so the more that we can expose to various cultures and that’s the beauty of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. More exposure that we have, the better we can be prepared, aware of our unconscious bias, and allow people to be able to then be their best selves at work.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:25:25.23] I love it. And I love, I love that you’re doing all this. One of the things that Meryl also said in the interview, and I thought this was a really great suggestion is not everyone can answer the phone, especially when you’re deaf or hearing impaired. So having an option that says, how do you prefer to communicate?

Jackye Clayton: [00:25:43.62] Yes.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:25:44.07] And it was just a little dropdown or a box that said, I want to talk via text. I think that those things, asking pronouns, talking about what kind of accommodations you need, having an email that actually HR can receive. So if somebody needs an accommodation, they can ask for that before the interview. These are all small things that we can do to, to make people feel more welcome and inclusive, which is what we should be doing.

Jackye Clayton: [00:26:11.01] Yes.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:26:11.70] I want to go back just a bit and talk about pronouns because we talked about them a little bit. But why is supporting gender-inclusive pronouns so important?

Jackye Clayton: [00:26:23.82] A great question. One of the things that’s important, and I should, as a disclaimer, share that I am the parent of a trans person, not their non-binary and their pronouns are they/them. It’s important because again, we’re normalizing that we share the pronouns and not being assumptive. Another thing that’s really easy is to make sure that we refer to everyone as they/them until they let us know what their pronouns are. Because again, you don’t want to inflict additional trauma on a person by making them have to out themselves. Like this is why it’s all about safety and we have to make sure that we are accommodating for that. So we share it so that people feel comfortable sharing and we don’t ask people. If they would like to share their pronouns, they will. If they don’t, they don’t have to. But it has become policy internally. And it’s also so we don’t misgender people. Like, just as much as I will admit, like there was a woman we were interviewing named Jennifer, and I said Jenny out of nowhere. And they were like, It’s Jennifer. And I have like, wanted to like, curl into a ball and die. But I wouldn’t call somebody by some other name, right? That I just made up, right? Like, let’s try to get to know the whole person and this just takes it out so that we’re sharing that early on and people have that understanding before it becomes uncomfortable. We don’t want to cause any uncomfortable situations for anyone.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:28:04.35] I have noticed that while LinkedIn has an option for you to share your pronouns and I have gotten several messages where I’ve shared mine and it’s like I don’t, I don’t want to be connected to anyone who does X that is willing to share. And I’m like, Thank you for eliminating yourself from my space, right? Because I don’t want to be surrounded by people who aren’t willing to, to share and inquire. I just want people to feel comfortable. And I think that is why we ask.

Jackye Clayton: [00:28:40.56] And can you imagine, like, so then you go and you start your first day and then someone decides for you. It’s important to mention people say, What are your preferred pronouns? No, they’re not preferred like my pronouns are she/her. You don’t get to say, Well, I know they are she/her, but I’m going to use e/his. What? No, you don’t, you don’t get to do that. And we, it’s funny how we promote, we want people to bring their whole selves to work, but then people try to take away by saying, Oh, but we don’t do pronouns. Well, then I can’t bring my whole self to work if that’s the case.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:29:18.76] One thing that, and we talked about this on the prep call that my daughter Riley did recently when she did like a pronoun quiz and she just asked a series of questions of like how I would like to be referred, what my pronouns were. And then she asked things like, How do I want to be complimented? Is handsome appropriate? Is it beautiful? And these are all words or And then she was like, Mrs., Ms., Miss, Mr., what are mix? What are my preferences? And it, it was, it was nice to hear. And also it was surprising, like, I will receive all compliments if they’re masculine or feminine, feminine. Do not call me ma’am or Mrs., I don’t know. But it was, it was I think it was a nice activity. It also, like, this is something that’s important to Riley, so it’s important to me and it also helps me kind of see into the future of what the workplace is going to be like. I mean, you have, you have kids that are in the workforce.

Jackye Clayton: [00:30:25.30] Yes.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:30:25.75] And my daughter will be soon. So this is going to be a normal request and expectation.

Jackye Clayton: [00:30:34.63] That’s right. And it is so important that, again, I have my oldest has been misgendered. And like I said, it was, they couldn’t do their job that day, right? They were hurt and they felt unsafe and, you know, start giving people the side eye and seeing on how they were being, being treated. And, and so it just, is, it’s just good practice.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:31:08.09] What mistakes do you see companies make when it comes to DEI? Maybe like the most common or maybe the one that drives you the craziest?

Jackye Clayton: [00:31:17.12] I think the first thing that drives me crazy is they’ll say, Oh, we need to have more women and people of color, and they just start jumping in and without preparing the organization, letting people know that this is what’s happening, the expectations. Like, like we’re talking about now, the expectation is to share your pronouns. The expectation is that we make accommodations. The expectation is that these things are going to happen. That drives me crazy. The other thing is not having a definition or understanding of the demographics of the organization. I laugh at my own organization. We have an executive team that is a majority women. And so for us, when we’re looking at the definition of diversity and inclusion, it’s like we really need to add more men to our executive team as soon as we can because there’s voices that are missing. And I think that people don’t look at maybe you do have gaps. So that, that piece really makes me go bananas. And something else that happens is that we don’t hold people accountable to those numbers. Something that we’ve changed internally is making sure that there’s an executive. Of course, again, we are 122 people, but making sure that there’s an executive that is aware of the hires that are being made. And we started breaking down diversity, equity, and inclusion by department rather than the whole organization. When you look at the whole organization, it looks great. But then when you look at it from a departmental standpoint, there are some that are oversaturated in one group and there are voices that are missing. And so that drives me to the cocktails as well.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:33:07.07] And that’s why, that’s why we ask. I mean, so let’s shift over to maybe best advice. So best advice for HR professionals who would like to do more work in the DEI space or bring new initiatives to their companies. Where do they start?

Jackye Clayton: [00:33:24.41] First thing is to start at home, right? Take care of your own house. One of the reasons why hiring people from underrepresented groups as the first stage is wrong is because you have people from underrepresented groups that are there. Ask them about their experiences. What do they, would they like to see? What do they think are missing? Because you, because they’re having the conversations, whether you know it or not. Maybe they haven’t felt open to share that information with you. But it’s also is important to take account internally of where do we need to start so you can have build programs to make sure that people are feeling welcome and seeing if there is any gaps. The other part is to look at your job descriptions and making sure that you are referring, using they/them instead of making the assumptions in your writing and making sure that there isn’t any detractors in your job descriptions, making sure that you’re only requiring the pieces that are, really have to be required, and that you’re open to people from other communities within those roles. And then, of course, letting people know in the job descriptions that this is something that is important to the organization.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:34:37.28] Well, Jackye, as always, thank you for your time chatting with us. It’s always good to catch up, even if it’s a podcast where you’re being recorded. But, well, we need to meet up soon. Where can people go to connect more with you, the podcast, and all the things?

Jackye Clayton: [00:34:53.69] Yes, so Inclusive AF, you can find it on your favorite place to listen to podcasts. I think we’re the only one called Inclusive AF. And you can always find me, I spell my name a little different. It’s Jackye Clayton, and I’m Jackye Clayton on LinkedIn and Twitter and I’m on LinkedIn and Twitter all the time, so.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:35:17.84] We’ll link to Inclusive AF and then your LinkedIn and your Twitter on, on the show notes. So if you just want to go to Workology.com and scroll on over to Jackye’s interview, you can get all the things. But thank you again. It was a pleasure.

Jackye Clayton: [00:35:32.51] You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

Closing: [00:35:34.88] Conversations about diversity, equity, and inclusion are so important and we need to have more of them because these conversations don’t just spark, but they ignite change. As HR leaders, we can support our organizations with resources that open up DEI conversations and initiatives in a way that makes space for employees to bring their whole selves to work, while also setting an example of what doing the right thing looks like. I appreciate Jackye as a friend, as an expert, and her expertise and her time. So thank you, Jackye. Enjoyed talking to you today on the podcast. And I want to thank you for joining the Workology Podcast powered by Upskill HR and Ace the HR Exam. This podcast is for the disruptive workplace leader who’s tired of the status quo. Let’s change work together. My name is Jessica Miller-Merrell. Thank you for listening to the Workology Podcast. Share your opinions, thoughts, suggestions by texting me. Text the word “PODCAST” to 512-548-3005. You can ask me questions, leave suggestions, and let me know who you want to be on this podcast as a guest. Until next time you can visit Workology.com to listen to all our previous podcast episodes. I hope that you have not just a good day, but a great day. See you soon.

Connect with Jackye Clayton.



– Jackye Clayton on LinkedIn

– Jackye on Twitter

– Inclusive AF Podcast

– Episode 378: Trust and Understanding in the Disability Disclosure Conversation With Albert Kim

– Episode 374: Digital Equity at Work and in Life With Bill Curtis-Davidson and Chris Wood

– Episode 369: Making the Workplace Accessible Both for Employees and Contractors With Meryl Evans

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